SHOW NOTES
Laurel Starks is a recognized expert in family law real estate and has sold over $180 million in sales volume, placing her in the top 1% of agents worldwide. In this capacity, she has advised, consulted and testified in hundreds of divorce cases, and serves as a court-appointed expert in the disposition of real property. Attorneys, judges and other legal professionals have come to rely on Laurel’s knowledge, judgment, integrity, as well as her ability to explain complex real estate matters to those affected by them.
In this episode, Brian and Laurel discuss the responsibility and importance of educating agents in the divorce niche and how Laurel has dominated this niche.
In this episode, we talk about...
- 1:13 - How did laurel become passionate about divorce?
- 4:16 - Laurel shares tips on how agents can get into the divorce niche now!
- 10:10 - Where do most of the divorce agents listings come from?
- 19:12 - Over 75% of students have gotten an ROI from the course investment with these methods.
- 23:20 - Closing remarks and strong advice from expert Laurel Starks
Show Transcript
Brian Charlesworth: [00:00:35] Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the GRIT podcast. I'm Brian Charlesworth. I'm the founder of Sisu and I'm your host of the show. And today we have our first female on the show. it's a big honor. Thank you for joining us. We're here with Laurel Starks. And she is the founder and CEO of The Ilumni Institute. She is a recognized expert in family law, real estate.
Brian Charlesworth: [00:00:58] She's the author of the book The HouseMatters in Divorce. She was also named as an Inman innovator. And I want totalk more about that and how you got name that I know that's a big honor. She'salso a writer for multiple publications and also a public speaker around theworld. That's a lot of things you've done there. Is there is there anything Imiss like a professional athlete or anything like that?
Laurel Starks: [00:01:23] I was. Now I have never run The IronMan. I'm lucky to go get the mail. So, yeah, no professional athlete.
Brian Charlesworth: [00:01:31] Well, that's an awesome intro. Andobviously, I stole that from your your stuff. So I just want to find out as Ias I did some research on you, Laurel, there was I mean, there's so much aboutdivorce. How did you get so passionate about divorce?
Laurel Starks: [00:01:48] My second listing that I ever took wasa divorce listing. And then I got into this business. I had been in the airlineindustry prior to being getting into real estate. I didn't have any kind oflegal background. I'm not a lawyer. And I got into real estate and then I wasappointed by the court through a friend of mine who was an attorney to list andsell this house. And it was the War of the Roses. I had a wife who needed tosell a house yesterday, and I had a husband who told me to pound sand that hewas never going to sign any of my paperwork in a never column again. And yet Ihad to get this thing sold. So I thought it was very fascinating niche. As Igot more into it, I realized that there was really no education for it. Therewas also there was no protocol for how to kind of handle it. And yet there wasa huge need. I also recognized that there is a broken system out there in thefamily law world as it pertains to dealing with real estate. And there was abig need for family law attorneys, courts and litigants to become educated andhave somebody who is really versed in their world from our industry serve it.
Brian Charlesworth: [00:03:12] So obviously, I left something out ofyour introduction, which is that you actually do sell real estate. You've doneover one hundred and eighty million in volume. You do run a team. Are you asolo agent? Tell us more about that.
Laurel Starks: [00:03:24] Yeah. So I built a team in 2012. Istarted my business as a solo agent and then I built my team in 2012. And thenI went I had a team from 2012 to about 2017. And then I dismantled my team. Iwent back to being a solo agent so that I could develop the alumni instituteand educate the industry. So I had that, too. That means that two businesses Icurrently am and very active real estate, divorced real estate listing agent.So my real estate business focuses in on the divorce niche. Ninety five toninety eight percent of what I do is divorce real estate. And then I also havethe alumni institute.
Brian Charlesworth: [00:04:13] Ok. So being focused on divorce, I knowa lot of people focus on divorce who are focused on investing that I buy ortype model. Are you doing that as well as that part of your real estatebusiness or just selling real estate to people who are going through a divorce?
Laurel Starks: [00:04:28] I sell the houses in divorce cases. Sowhen two people own a home together and they are getting a divorce and theycan't agree on a realtor or they need you know, they need a realtor to list andsell the property. That's where I come in.
Brian Charlesworth: [00:04:43] Ok. So there are a lot of realtorslistening to this and people who run teams and brokerages as well. How did theyget into this niche? Because obviously that's an issue you're building anentire business off of. If they just wanted to take a section of their businessand say, I'm going to hire a couple people and you're going to focus strictlyon this niche. How would how would they go about that?
Laurel Starks: [00:05:07] Yeah. So, I mean, basically, this isone of those niches where it's very deep and complex. And I highly recommendthat people get educated before they really get into the niche, because thelegal process that's going on in the sale of a home in a divorce case, ittrumps everything. It really governs everything. So if if real, if we asrealtors show up and we want to focus on getting divorced listings and focus onthe divorce niche without knowing the rules of the game, it is like walkingonto a soccer field trying to play. And you don't even know, you know, wherethe goal is and you don't know what the penalties are. So it's it's veryimportant, first and foremost, for realtors to become educated. IllinoisInstitute is is passionate about is educating realtors so that they can beeffective. And then there's really two ways to build it. One way. Once you onceyou know what you're doing. One way is to maximize your own database. So mostof us know people who've gotten divorced. If if haven't been divorcedourselves. And our database is either going to have people in it that aregetting divorced, that are going to get a divorce or that no people getting adivorce. So realtors will need to be the number one person that comes to mindwhen somebody in their database either is or they know someone who's getting adivorce. And then the other way to build a business is through attorneyreferral.
Brian Charlesworth: [00:06:47] Okay. I was going to ask you, though,is it is it attorneys driving the business? Is it the law driving the businessor is it a husband or wife driving the business? Where does most of yourbusiness come from in that?
Laurel Starks: [00:06:57] My business comes from the family lawcommunity. It comes from divorce attorneys and it comes from the courts.
Brian Charlesworth: [00:07:04] Okay, great. We'll hear more aboutthat. So because you've learned so much about this space and people like me whohave sold real estate but don't really know anything about this. You've createdthe Alumni Institute. Tell us about that. Why did you create that? Obviously,people like us need to get educated. So tell us, what is that and what's theprocess of going through that? And things like that.
Laurel Starks: [00:07:30] So one of the things that I am verypassionate about is, is the is the life and the well-being of the family who'sgoing through divorce and everything we teach. That's really the cornerstone.So when realtors get on a case or they get assigned a listing, somehow some waythey got a listing that is involved in a divorce. There's a big responsibilitythat comes with that. And it is important that we are able to successfully andswiftly close them. There can be a lot of toxic environments going on until thehouse is sold. There can also be a lot of money that is riding on the sale ofthe house. So it's important that realtors know how to prevent and mitigate theconflict and how to navigate through these complex listings. Days on the marketcontinue to add up. That means that people aren't able to move on with theirlives. That means that children are in toxic homes sometimes. And the the themore that a realtor is, say, unsuccessful at getting a property sold, it can itcan mean attorneys fees because they've got to go in and have another hearingabout getting the property sold and who are they going to sell it with. Or itcan mean more hearings about who, what offer to accept or what, who's going tobe responsible for repairs and upkeep of the property and all of those sorts ofthings. So. So understanding that there is a lot at stake in these listingsfrom the lives of the divorcing lot against to them and their children, to themoney that they need from the sale of the house to rebuild their future. When Igot into this, I realized that there was this big, heavy responsibility. I alsoto this day, about half the listings I take are as a result of a failedlisting. So they had been listed with somebody else who did not know how tohandle it. And then they the listing expired or they just became so exasperatedwith the agent that. They replaced the agent and they brought me on the case.
Brian Charlesworth: [00:09:54] How did they get a hold of you? What'syour marketing to get into people like that?
Laurel Starks: [00:10:01] I am a asset to family law attorneys.So I work alongside attorneys. I help attorneys understand real estate as itpertains to family law. I help them sometimes craft their orders. So when theyneed to go and get an order in order to sell the house, there's a lot of languagethat goes in these court orders. And we need to sometimes help them make surethat they are correct so that we can execute them. There's a lot of informationthat that they're gonna want to include in those. And so that is the family lawattorneys are really my my farm, OK?
Brian Charlesworth: [00:10:43] So. So you're the expert. I listed myhouse with somebody else. It expires. Just in a scenario here and now, myattorney tells me, you know, you get with Laurel. And that's how that's howyou're getting these listings, is that right?
Laurel Starks: [00:11:03] Yeah. So the attorney will oftentimes Imean, nobody has a unilateral ability to make these decisions. So the attorneymight suggest their trip to their client that you need to get floral. They willalso speak with opposing counsel and say, you know what? My recommendation isthat we bring on an expert to really handle this listing, because this case,you know, is is high conflict or whatever. And then if opposing side agrees,then they will have me. Come on. Sometimes they don't agree. Sometimes theysay, no, no, no husband has a brother, whatever he wants to listed. And thenthey'll go before the court. And then the court sometimes makes that decision.
Brian Charlesworth: [00:11:43] Ok. So you are the expert. How long didit take you to become an expert and how long would it take somebody today tobecome an expert? Assuming that I'm guessing by going through the alumniinstitute, I can become an expert. I can become certified. I see something herethat you are the issuer of the CBRE, which is certified divorce. Real estateexpert credential. So what does that mean?
Laurel Starks: [00:12:11] Yeah. So it took me. Listen, I'm alwaysa student. I'm forever a student. So I will say that anybody who embarks onthis is is always going to be forever learning. How long did it take me toreally feel like I had a handle on it? It probably took me about five to sevenyears to really feel like I. I felt rather masterful in identifying the issuesin family law, in working with the parties and making sure that I'm able toidentify high conflict personalities. I'm able to work as a neutral and andreally be super effective. So how long will it take someone else? My goal andall of us. So the alumni institute is is made up of not just me, but we've alsogot a founding faculty of family law attorneys, judges, financial experts whoall came together to create this whole program. And it is our goal that we lopoff about, you know, three to four years of that type of learning. So thatreally within within the six to become a CBRE, it's a six month program. Andthey will become then as CBRE within six months there. Like I said, there'salways going to be learning. They're always a student. And we're there tocontinue to guide and to mentor our agents.
Brian Charlesworth: [00:13:41] Is that something you do twice a year?Do you do that every month or how frequently do you do you do this program?If I-- let's say I'm listening to this podcast today and I decide I'm going tobecome an expert. This is a market that I would love to have these that theseattorneys feed this business to me. But I realize I need to be an expert forthat. So how soon can I get into to this training?
Laurel Starks: [00:14:03] Sure. So our next trip, we do it twicea year. And so when one six month program ends, we begin another one. And ournext one is April 19th. And is it starts out by a live of life, fighted fiveday class here in Southern California. And then it continues online through an apprenticeshiponline for the remaining six months. And then the next one will be in October.So every October and April.
Brian Charlesworth: [00:14:31] Ok. So the first five days, I'm goingto be in sunny California. After that, I am going to go online. How frequentlyhow much of my time is this going to take over the next six months for me todecide, is this something I want to become?
Laurel Starks: [00:14:47] Sure. So if we have got every everymonth we have what's called a learning lab. If you think about it like twotracks. So we have the learning and development piece, which is continuing tobecome an expert. So how to do fair market valuations is this month. How didyou fare market valuations for courts that are, you know, biased communication,all of those types of things that goes on for sale for the six months. But theother track is also the business development. So once you leave California,then you will be we will be guiding you. And we've got a playbook on how you goand build those relationships with attorneys for the six months you are doingalongside. You're doing you're doing both. Almost like a student athlete. Weare continuing to teach you and you learn. But then also you're out in thefield and you are meeting attorneys. We prep everything from what you give themto what you say to how you ask for appointments. All of that. It's a very. Veryspecific playbook on how to build a business in this. And so we're right thereto guide and coach you every single step of the way as you're out in the fieldbuilding it, and then you're going to start to get some business. You're goingto start one of our one of our students. She is testifying in court today andwe were working with her over the weekend on getting her report together. And so,you know, we we work with we work with our students as they get the business,they get the listings. They, you know, they get all of that. So it's it's avery intense six months. Most of our students at towards the end of the sixmonths, they're like, oh, my gosh, I need more. So.
Brian Charlesworth: [00:16:41] So am I going to have time for anythingelse if I do this?
Laurel Starks: [00:16:46] Yup, so very good question. We onlytake experts in real estate to become CBRE. So the requirements at a bareminimum, the requirements are three years real estate experience. Forty fivetransactions. And in good standing with your license. So all of our studentsare in the top 5 percent. They all have got active businesses. So it's veryimportant to be able to time Baucus. And we have done a lot of the we provide alot of the assets for our students to use to go deliver to their attorneys. Alot of the you know, we have the whole marketing system done because we knowhow busy our client, our students are. And we recommend about 10 hours a weekto successfully build the business.
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Brian Charlesworth: [00:17:52] Ok. That's right. That's what I waslooking for. So if I want to commit 10 hours a week into this. How manylistings might I be able to get? Let's say a year from now, let's say a yearfrom now, I've become an expert. Give me an example of what kind of business Ican expect to get from becoming this expert. Just as far as when I saybusiness, can I expect to get just listings around divorces, which obviouslyyou can talk to this as well. But obviously the husband's gonna go buy a home.The wife might go buy a home. So there's there's additional businessopportunities there as well. But what what's the really the opportunity thatsits there for me as a real estate agent or team owner and that I'm going tosay I want to learn this and I want to go testify in court. That's anotherquestion. How often do I have to testify in court? Because maybe maybe that'snot something I want to spend my time doing.
Laurel Starks: [00:18:49] So as a CBRE, we provide we are aresource for our attorneys and what comes along with that is testifying. So itis not going to be helpful for an attorney if they have a realtor on a case whois not willing to testify. That's not helpful, because then you have you've gota wife saying something, you've got husband saying something, and you don'thave that that neutral person who's willing to to get on that on the stand. SoI would say to me that if you do 10 transactions, how many are you going totestify on? Typically. You know, it I testify on about 20 percent of mylistings.
Brian Charlesworth: [00:19:35] OK. OK.
Laurel Starks: [00:19:36] And we also testify on some otherthings. So we testify on fair market values. I testify to that. We testify ontitle issues. So it's not just real estate itself. You know, working in alisting, but it's also other pieces where they need a real estate expert totestify. So how what you know, what can you expect? Well, I can tell you is, isthat 75 percent of our students have received an oral lie from their investmentin the class. In one year, which is really, when you think about it, prettyunheard of. Because Zillow has got. I think it's less than a couple of percentfarming, doing a geographic farm. It takes about two years, according to NA, toget an R a Y from your investment in a neighborhood farm. So in this we havegot fantastic, outstanding results. How many actual pieces of business? That isa number that is going to be tough for me to be able to just quantify. I mean,you know, you get out of it what you put into it.
Laurel Starks: [00:20:54] Absolutely. And so we have got studentswho have completed, you know, zero. We've got students who have completed two.We've got students have completed 10. And it just this is this is a long game.It is. It is. This is marathon business building. But the good thing about itis, is that, you know, when you're working in like Zillow or you're or, youknow, depending on online leads or you're doing open houses, calling expired.The minute you stop lead generating your business stops. In this business, youbuild a reputation and you build an expertise and then that starts to grow. Wecall it courtroom viral. You're your reputation starts to just mushroom and inin the courtroom because your name is thrown out there all the time andattorneys are in the hallway with their clients. And a stipulation they've gotto make, you know, they got to pick somebody and they've got a nother attorneywalking down and they say, hey, you know, a realtor that I could use? Yeah.Laurel Starks put her name in the stipulation. I mean, that's literally how itworks.
Brian Charlesworth: [00:22:09] So we have Judge Judy and we havetestifier Laurel Starks, something like that. So you brought this up? I wasn'tgoing to address this, but you talked about the investment, the ROIC. What kindof investments required to to really become an expert here?
Laurel Starks: [00:22:26] Sure. So our our six month program is$5000 to attend our life, five day class with our faculty, and then it'sfifteen hundred dollars a month for the remaining six months for theapprenticeship. So it's a total of a fourteen thousand dollar investment.
Brian Charlesworth: [00:22:47] Okay. Shifting gears a little bit. Andit's still still involves divorce, but the house matters and divorce books thatyou've published, I'm guessing that all talks about. I'm guessing that you'retargeting if I'm going through a divorce as a homeowner. That's a book I wantto read. Is that right?
Laurel Starks: [00:23:09] Exactly. So the the target readeraudience for that book is, is divorcing homeowners, untangling the legal,financial and emotional ties to the house and divorce. Now, many professionalshave read it. Lawyers have read it. Judges have read it. I've got a couple ofjudges at my local courthouse that practically want to mandate that theirclients read it as well. A lot of realtors have read it, financial divorce,financial analysts, lenders, all of that. So there's a lot of good information,even though the audience is the is the direct consumer. There's a lot of reallygood information in there.
Brian Charlesworth: [00:23:48] I'm guessing you give a signed copy toall of your clients who are going through a divorce
Laurel Starks: [00:23:55] Of course.
Brian Charlesworth: [00:23:56] OK. What other what other advice,Loral, would you want to give? To anybody thinking about doing this.
Laurel Starks: [00:24:07] Yeah. So, you know, understanding thatthis is more than just a shiny objects. I always know realtors, we love to sortof divert ourselves to what is going to give me the biggest R-N.Y. And where amI going to get the next bang for my back? This is really about purposeful work.It's about meaningful work. It's about taking our real estate skills andapplying them to something that's gonna make a difference. The family lawsystem is truly in need of realtors who are experts at this and who are versedin this who can help make the system better. And I would just say that if thisis something you feel like as a calling, if it's a passion, if it's strike you,we definitely want to talk to you. And, you know, it is the byproduct is thatyou build a great business. I mean, you build I've got my I was the I was thenumber one realtor in my entire region from Palm Springs to Pasadena last year.And then I got the award again this year focusing on this niche. But that's thebuyer.
Brian Charlesworth: [00:25:26] Now, was that a KW plaque? I saw there?
Laurel Starks: [00:25:28] Yup.
Brian Charlesworth: [00:25:29] Okay. So you were number one in yourregion at KW, in which region is that?
Laurel Starks: [00:25:35] The Inland Empire region? And it spansfrom Pasadena to Palm Springs a couple hundred miles. Okay. Right. You know, itis the byproduct is the business that is built as a result of the passion inthe water and the purposeful work. So.
Brian Charlesworth: [00:25:52] Okay. So you've got to have a passionfor this. You don't just jump in for the money. It's more about have reason todo this. You say there's a shortage. How many how many realtors are experts outthere and how many are needed? I mean, how big is that shortage?
Laurel Starks: [00:26:11] Yeah, that shortage is well, our visionand our goal at the Alumni Institute is to provide the directory that lawyersand judges all over the country use to find realtors to sell houses in all oftheir cases. So there are a million divorces on average a year. 70 percent ofthem involve real estate. Not all of those sell. There's a fraction of thosethat that sell, you know, somewhere. I've heard statistics somewhere in theneighborhood of 40 to 50 percent of the ones that involve real estate do sellwithin within the first two years of a divorce. So there's a huge there's justa huge need.
Brian Charlesworth: [00:26:57] A million divorces in the US. You'resaying you're right. If I want to find out how many there are in my county.What do I what do I do? How do I find that out?
Laurel Starks: [00:27:06] Yeah. So all of the data for divorce issort of a little bit rogue and sort of scattered. So each state keeps their ownstatistics somehow. There's not exactly a reservoir or a database that isbroken down by each market that we found. So you can't. But but there arestatistics. Court courts keep statistics on it, on on. There's filings and thenthere's completed divorces. So those are two different things. You can have alot of people file for divorce, but then they reconcile. So you can just, Iwould say, use good old Google and and see how many there are in your ownmarket. But but it is our vision and our goal that the only people who whohandle real estate listings in family law cases are CBRE.
Brian Charlesworth: [00:27:57] Makes sense. OK. Stepping outside ofthe divorce Rome for a minute. What what kind of things do you like to do forfun in your personal time?
Laurel Starks: [00:28:07] I like to travel. So I was in theairline industry before I got into this. And I'm an avid traveler. I've been tosix continents and my children. Our goal, my husband and I. Our goal. We hadkids was to take them to every continent before they graduate high school. Sowe've done six. We've not made it to an article yet.
Brian Charlesworth: [00:28:28] Oh, that's awesome. So I love it. So doyou guys go someplace every year?
Laurel Starks: [00:28:34] We do. So last year, 2019, we went to-- my husband and I went to Italy. We stayed in Rome and then the Amalfi Coastand parts of Tana. And then my family, we went to Dubai and to South Africa.OK. That was an amazing, amazing trip. So this year we are going to actuallywe're going to Mexico. My husband and I are going to prove to me. And thenwe've got a European family trip planned for London, Amsterdam, Germany,Austria, Switzerland.
Brian Charlesworth: [00:29:12] Great. I did a I did a trip to Dubai,actually, when I was in the world of franchising, sold the master franchiseover there and had someone. They flew us over there and completely just tookcare of us for two weeks and we did everything. I mean, they just entertain usthe entire time. It was it was an amazing.
Brian Charlesworth: [00:29:32] What's that?
Laurel Starks: [00:29:33] When was it that was?
Brian Charlesworth: [00:29:36] It's been about 10 years now.
Laurel Starks: [00:29:39] It's an amazing city. It's probably -it's evolved a lot since you since you went there. It's kind of like Vegas. Itjust keeps building up.
Brian Charlesworth: [00:29:47] Yeah. So they did have the tallestbuilding in the world when I went there. So of all those places you've been.What's your favorite place?
Laurel Starks: [00:29:59] South Africa.
Brian Charlesworth: [00:30:01] Really?
Laurel Starks: [00:30:01] Yeah. So there's something about it.
Brian Charlesworth: [00:30:04] How long ago were you there?
Laurel Starks: [00:30:06] So I went and we went last July. Andthen I had also gone when I was when I was I was I went ninety like nineteenninety five. And then and then we my family we went last July and we went to wewent to Cape Town, love Cape Town and we went to, we went on safari at aGoronga which is outside of KRUGER. And it was just it's, it's a magical,magical place. I wish it wasn't so far away.
Brian Charlesworth: [00:30:41] Ok. So we have some friends who havebeen telling us they want to go to South Africa. I've heard that it may not bethe safest place, but it sounds like I need to contact you and get a you canyou can schedule our itinerary for us.
Laurel Starks: [00:30:56] I'll send you my itinerary. OK. OK. Wewere very, very safe so long as we stayed within our, you know, where we were.That was amazing. So happy to share my tent. I'm happy to talk travel. Anytimeanybody wants to talk about travel.
Brian Charlesworth: [00:31:11] Great sounds. Sounds fabulous. Sooutside of divorce, what's your favorite book or favorite source of learning?
Laurel Starks: [00:31:21] Oh, my favorite or my favorite sourceof learning. I am a big I love to read business books. I'm a student of JohnMaxwell. I'm a student. And then I and then I also like to read things likeOprah has some books. So I like to I try to do some feel good stuff. I tend tonot be a fiction person. I just for whatever reason, I like to read sort ofmore realistic stuff and. Yeah.
Brian Charlesworth: [00:31:57] You like to read stuff that you'regoing to learn and grow from?
Laurel Starks: [00:32:01] I guess, yeah. Right. That's kind ofthat's kind of boring, but I tend to be in that mode as well.
Brian Charlesworth: [00:32:07] Yeah.
Laurel Starks: [00:32:08] Yeah I do.
Brian Charlesworth: [00:32:09] So. So if anyone wants to hear moreabout the alumni institute or reach out to you, what what's the best way to geta hold of you.
Laurel Starks: [00:32:19] Yeah. So you are welcome to email me.Laurel@IlumniInstitute.com. You can also go find out more information on ourwebsite, which is IlumniInstitute.com.
Brian Charlesworth: [00:32:40] Okay. Awesome. Well, thank you so muchfor being on the show today. Completely different than most of our shows. Andit's it's been fun to or learn about this really niche category in real estate.So we really appreciate you joining us today. And we'll stay in touch when Iget ready for that trip to South Africa. OK.
Laurel Starks: [00:32:57] Please do. I've got lots, lots toshare. All right. Thanks so much for having me on.
